August 24, 2005 From: Sheila Woods I thought you might be interested in the response I received today from Veteren's Affairs.  My own thoughts follow it....   Date stamped August 19, 2005   Dear Ms. Woods:            Thank  you for your email message forwarded by my colleague, the Honorable David Anderson, M.P., requesting that Veterans Affairs Canada compensate those individuals who have been exposed to Agent  Orange and/or Agent Purple at Canadian Forces Base (CFB) Gagetown, New Brunswick.  In view of Mr. Anderson's interest, I will be providing him with a copy of my reply.  I regret the delay in responding.       Please rest assured that Veterans Affairs Canada has heard the stories of Veterans based at CFB Gagetown during herbicide spraying.  The Department encourages all Veterans who believe they have a disability as a result of their service, to contact us whether the disability is related to herbicide spraying or is due to another service-related factor or event.       The department understands the need for urgency.  In fact, a special Review Team, led by one of our most experienced Pension Adjudicators, has been established to process all incoming applications regarding Agent Orange or Agent Purple exposure as expeditiously as possible.       You may be interested in knowing that disability pensions are awarded in accordance with the provisions of the Pension Act.  The pension process is designed to give applicants every chance to show how their disability is related to military service.  Decisions are evidence based, and in the case of herbicide-related claims, exposure must be demonstrated based on the evidence presented.  In the absence of credible evidence to the contrary, however, any doubt that arises in weighing the evidence regarding a claimed disability, is resolved in the applicant's favour.       As you may know, however, the Pension Act does not provide for the payment of a disablity pension for a disability suffered by a Veteran's wife or child.  The Department is, however, doing everything within its mandate to support Veterans and their families who feel they have been affected by possible exposure.       Again, thank you for giving me the opportunity to respond to your concerns and expressing your views in this matter of importance.                                              Yours sincerely,                                                The Honourable Albina Guarnieri, P.C., M.P.   Well, I suppose I should be grateful that at least I did not receive a form letter in response to my letter.  Interesting about the Adjudicator heading up the special Review Team - especially since they negelect to state just who these special people are.  Forgive me for the sarcasm - their response to this whole matter really gets my goat!!  Especially the part in the letter that states 'Veterans are given every chance to show how their disability is related to military service'.  'HOW" their disability is related to military service....This statement certainly excludes the innocent bystanders we refer to as 'family' from receiving any financial aid for THEIR disabilities in one nice and tidy sentence, doesn't it!  For the life of me, Art, I just don't get how they expect people to 'prove' that all of these horrific events are as a result of military service - based on 'credible evidence'.  What a load of crap!!!  Who defines 'credible' and who defines 'evidence'????!!!  How about the fact that hundreds of veterens, AND THEIR FAMILIES have this seemingly odd high rate of life-altering health problems (that no human should have to endure), and the ONLY common denominator is where they lived and  who employed them?   Evidence my ass!!!  What do they require?  Video footage of the powers that be issuing the command to spray these chemicals??  If they did, I'm sure it would show them wearing protective gear to hide their identity - and it would also show them hundreds of miles away, in the safety of their plush little offices, where they had no danger of transmitting residual chemicals to THEIR loved ones....  Again, sorry for the sarcasm...very little disrespect is intended...  I also find it interesting that 'the Department is, however, doing everything within it's mandate to suport Veterens and their families who feel they have been affected by possible exposure'.  This says to me that perhaps some work could be done to modify the Department's Mandate to accomodate these extraordinary set of circumstances.  When I read 'who feel' I just wanted to rip the letter into bits-I was sooo angry!!  Feel!!  Feel!!!  How about they sit their butts down in a room with these families and REALLY listen to how they 'feel' about their health problems, about how they 'feel' about the impact it has had on each and every day of their lives since being in Gagetown, and how about they listen to how the rest of us Canadian's 'feel' about the lack of accountability and respect that these families have been shown? Oh, and while they are at it, they could listen to how these families 'feel' about the fact they have had to pay for treatments and medications out of their own pockets because the Department has a 'mandate' that only applies to Veterens?  And 'possible exposure'.... let's see...how could it be 'possible' for all of these people to have been exposed to these chemicals....  I know - maybe they all got together in a room - no, wait, a lean to - ya, a lean-to, out in the brush somewhere in the back 40 of Gagetown, and decided that in 40 years they were all going to reunite and pretend that they are really really sick - and all the ones who couldn't come because they had DIED - they would just send their loved ones in their stead - and they all would try to scam the government into giving them lots and lots of money and they'd compile years and years of pretend health issues (documented by doctors for that added touch of melodrama), so that they wouldn't look suspicious, and they'd all retire on the money they'd get from those suckers at the Department of Veterens Affairs..and then they got barrels of...of...water, and spread them all over the base so that it would look like they had sprayed toxic chemicals everywhere to lend creedance to their future claims....and they killed all the brush and leaves and plants by magic so it REALY looked good... ya... that must be what's going on here...boy, my hat is off to the mastermind of THAT plan!!!  Welll, I can see that I'm just rambling on and on - again, my apologies for sounding off at you about this, when you of ALL people know the rage and frustration and helplessness due to  this whole tragic mess you guys are finding yourself in....Well, I guess if nothing else, it lights my afterburners - I'm ready to do whatever I can to help you guys out, in my own feeble little way!!  Thanks for listening,   Sheila your rage and frustration is definitelyy expressed in your email. Its how we all feel and that is the reason for the website and the forum. To express our rage, our hurt, our questions, our concerns, our stories and of course our love. Thank you for letting the story make you so damn angry!! Art  ______________________________________________________________________ August 24, 2005 From: Sandy Skipton Art.. wanted to let you and the others know that Maj Janzen did respond to my email and has given permission that the response be posted... I cleaned up some of the formatting (not words) and you can decide if the address need to be shown so many time... I am just happy that he responded and NOTE... my article WILL BE in the Military newspaper.... Sandy  Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 2:20 PM Subject: RE: comments on article reported Aug8 - Aurora Newspaper > Ms. Skipton, > > Yes, by all means, please post my response. > > -----Original Message----- > From: DataNeeded [mailto:info.needed@ns.sympatico.ca] > Sent: Wednesday, 24, August, 2005 13:55 PM > To: Janzen.JH@forces.gc.ca > Subject: Re: comments on article reported Aug8 - Aurora Newspaper > > Thank you for the respect shown by your response... I posted my email to > you at the www.agentorangealert.com website... May I post your response? > Again > thank you Sir... Sandy > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <Janzen.JH@forces.gc.ca> > To: <info.needed@ns.sympatico.ca> > Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 10:05 AM > Subject: RE: comments on article reported Aug8 - Aurora Newspaper > >> Ms. Skipton, >> >> Thank-you for your e-mail in response to my article on Agent Orange that >> appeared in the Aug. 8 edition of The Aurora. >> >> It is true that the article did not focus on the testimony and anecdotal >> evidence raised by members of the general public at the public >> information >> session. This story had already been covered in dozens of different >> print, radio, and television news stories which ran across the country. >> The >> media coverage focused exclusively on the very compelling stories of >> those >> who believe that Agent Orange has affected their lives. What was missing >> from this coverage however, was the information presented by the panel on >> the scope of the testing program, the likely health effects from varying >> levels of exposure, and the actions that DND and the Federal Government >> are taking to deal with the concerns of citizens. I wrote the article to >> inform >> serving soldiers of these important facts. >> >> The Government response to this issue is not limited to the years 1966 >> and >> 1967. On Aug. 16, the Government of Canada clearly outlined its approach >> concerning the use of herbicides at CFB Gagetown. This approach includes >> the appointment of former New Brunswick environment minister and Gagetown >> mayor Vaughn Blaney to act as a coordinator in the ongoing fact-finding >> mission. One of Mr. Blaney's key tasks is to identify and report on >> facts >> surrounding the use of all herbicides sprayed at CFB Gagetown from 1952 >> to >> present day. This approach will be based on historic and scientific >> research that will gather a clear and consistent set of facts and allow >> the >> Government of Canada to make responsible decisions on future action. >> >> Soldiers that are currently serving in the CF should not be concerned >> about exposure to 2,4,5-T. These herbicides were only used in the >> training >> area during the 1950's and 1960's - long before the vast majority of >> today's >> troops ever set foot in the training area. After reviewing scientific >> and >> medical studies related to this issue, the CF Surgeon General has >> concluded that it is highly unlikely that soldiers who entered the these >> areas in >> subsequent years would be exposed to any toxins. >> >> Those veterans and others that were in the training area during the >> spraying of 2,4,5-T have legitimate questions that require answers. I am >> confident that Mr. Blaney and the Government's fact-finding mission will >> provide as many of these answers as possible in a timely fashion. >> >> Your letter will be printed in an upcoming edition of "The Aurora". >> >> Sincerely, >> >> Jay Janzen >> Major >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: DataNeeded [mailto:info.needed@ns.sympatico.ca] >> Sent: Tuesday, 16, August, 2005 19:23 PM >> To: Janzen.JH@forces.gc.ca >> Cc: Art Connolly >> Subject: comments on article reported Aug8 - Aurora Newspaper >> >> This is a different point of view to the article "Should soldiers who >> served in Gagetown be concerned about Agent Orange exposure" >> by Maj Jay Janzen, LFAA Public Affairs Officer. >> The article was in the August 8, Aurora newspaper. >> >> My name is Sandy Skipton, I attended the public information session that >> was held at CFB Gagetown on June 23 and was witness to a very angry >> group of civilian and former military members as they listened to the >> government representatives. I have been working for two years to find >> data that would prove my husband was in Gagetown. He was there with a >> sport team for a weekend during the time of the sprayings, and on >> May21/05 he died. >> Everything points towards Dioxin poisoning. I have been left to prove >> this >> with no help from the military, DVA or any other Government office. >> Consequently, I am one of the angry wives that is involved. There are >> many >> others just like myself. >> >> Sir, you have only covered what the government representatives said and >> have not reported what was said by the people that were looking forward >> to >> the government being honest and helpful. The government is saying that >> the >> spraying was only during 1966 and 1967, while there are military >> documents >> that show the spraying happened from 1956 til 1984. In 1964, the >> documents >> show, there was an incident due to weather inversion that caused the >> spray >> to move out of the intended spray area. Newspaper accounts of the time >> show civilian farmers got a $250,000 payout from the military one year >> after >> an accidental overspray destroyed their food crops. There seem to be many >> discrepancies in what the government is putting forth. These >> discrepancies >> have cause a Class Action Suit to be filed against the Minister of >> Defence >> and the Attorney General of Canada as representatives of the Canadian >> Government. Should soldiers who served in Gagetown be concerned about >> Agent Orange, Agent Purple, Agent White?? In my opinion YES!!!! >> We should all be concerned enough to educate ourselves so that each of us >> can >> better understand the implications of what truly happened. One place that >> someone could start their education is www.agentorangealert.com where >> they >> can read media reports, government media releases and the horror stories >> of the >> people that were in the area at the time. Don't believe everything you >> reador hear until you have been educated or walked a mile in the shoes of >> the >> affected people. All any of these people are asking is that the >> government >> be respectful and honest. >> I can not respond to your article since what I say is critical of DND and >> the >> Aurora Newspaper is bound by the 'Morale and Welfare Policy Manual - Vol >> 2' >> I know your task is to put out information that you are fed but I thought >> as a >> Canadian Citizen you might take the time to learn more on the topic. _________________________________________________________________________ August 24, 2005 Hi, Meg.  Good question.  I only know that Vaughn Blaney is a former mayor of Gagetown, a former teacher and principal for almost 20 years in Gagetown, as well as a past elected member of the NB Legistlature.  He worked from April 1994 - September, 1996 under Frank McKenna as Education Minister as far as I can gather from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Department_of_Education_(New_Brunswick). I did a Google search on him and there wasn't much info.  I got this re environment: http://nben.ca/environews/media/mediaarchives/96/jn-air.htm http://www.nben.ca/environews/media/mediaarchives/96/perms.htm If you do a google search on vaughn+Blaney+forests, some info does come up. The fact that he is an ex-Liberal says it all and he is certainly not qualified to do what the task force has set him up to do.  I'm very concerned.  Marilynn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Meg Sears" <MegSears@ncf.ca> To: "Marilynn" <mare7@eastlink.ca> > Thank you, Marilyn.  I would very much like to know what Mr. Blaney did > during his time as environment minister.  When was he in power?  What were > the major issues of his time?  How did he respond?  For instance, was he > really pro-spraying of forests and believed the regulators and pesticide > companies when they said that everything was "safe"?  Was he > scientifically thorough and did he understand things, or did he simply say > "my scientists say X and so X is true"?  What is Mr. Blaney's education > and employment when he is not in political office?  I'm sure others have a > lot more questions. > all the best, > Meg > _______________________________________________________________ August 24, 2005 First Name: Nancy Last Name: Belfry City: Thorold Province: Ontario Comments: Hi Art, first thank you for this forum and all the time you've put into it. It's been a great source of information for me. I think I'm the only one in my area that comes from the army life.I've been telling people around here about the situation of Gagetown, no one here has heard of it.I called the local newspaper The St. Catharines Standard about a month ago(thought it would help get the word out)they're working on a story.I've called and e-mailed my local MP. They didn't hear of this. They are sending a letter to Bill Graham on my behave.I've e-mailed everyone and anyone that I think could help me with this, no help.I've joined the Class Action suite.Spoken with my doctor and specialist. They give me a look and say interesting?My father "didn't know about the spraying" he was with the Dragoons.My family is telling me to stop thinking of this problem (they are worried about me)and concentrate on my health.But I need to know.What was done, who it was done to and are my three young children going to run into health problems because of Gagetown.What else or where else could I look for answers? Thank you for your time  Nancy Belfry Nancy..Don't be surprised by the lack of knowldege people have regarding this story. St Catharine's is not the only place that is uninformed. I was interviewed for that story in the Standard. Let me know when it is out. We need to start letting the world know. You say some MP's arent aware...then it is time for us to let them know. I urge everyone to call the MP in their area and fill them in. Find out what their opinion is and let me know. I will put their thoughts online. Tell your friends. Tell everyone. Write the editors of your papers. Call your local TV stations. People in Toronto go on Speaker's Corner. We have a good basis of interest. Over 375,000 hots on the website tells me this. We need to organize. We need to push for an inquiry. -Art   ________________________________________________________________________ August 23, 2005 From Marc Maclean Hello Art,   I got this post from a google search on the pilot "Bill Wright" named in the AI file. Bill was interviewed in 81 and he stated that he was soaked in the stuff and 15 years later "1981" he had no health problems. But read on if you haven't heard of his fate already....   Of course the post below is just a post.   Marc   ------------------------------------------------------------------   http://www.whughes.ca/RMC/RMCGagetown.html   Jim Howes: 27 June 05 I don't know of any of our classmates except me who were in Gagetown during that period. However, I was only out on the ranges a couple of times during the few months that I was there, and so my exposure (if any) was minimal.   However, about four of our regiment's air OP pilots flew several defoliation flights with improvised spray tanks fitted to their aircraft. One of them, Bill Wright, later told me about how he would come back in with his clothes soaked in agent orange. He died a few years later of multiple cancers. One of the other pilots involved, Gord Mastine, died about two weeks ago, of (you guessed it) multiple cancers. These could well be coincidences, but on the other hand.... __________________________________________________________________________ August 23, 2005 The Vietnamese media is reporting the story now. Canadian veterans raise voice over Agent Orange Thanh Nien Daily - Ho Chi Minh city,Vietnam ... Agent Orange, blamed for tens of thousands of deaths during the Vietnam War, was sprayed at Canadian Forces Base Gagetown New Brunswick Canada from the period ... __________________________________________________________________ August 22, 2005 From: Mike Christie  Mon 22 Aug 2005 Ottawa Sun, Letters If the government were sincere about getting to the bottom of the spraying of Agent Orange at Base Gagetown and if they were serious about wanting to assist those affected by Agent Orange, Purple and White, then maybe they should consider placing Ken Dobbie and Art Connolly on that committee. Otherwise this committee looks no different than a committee looking into the trafficking of drugs or prostitution involving the Hells Angels, and their former members heading up that committee. It is all about accountability and good "government," that is if there is such a thing. Wayne Coady http://www.ottawasun.com/Comment/Letters/2005/08/21/1182702.html Thanks for the vote of confidence Wayne -Art _________________________________________________________________ August 22, 2005 From: Marilynn Dougherty AGENT ORANGE PETITION ViveleCanada.ca http://www.vivelecanada.ca/article.php/20050818220144949 _________________________________________________________________ August 22.2005 First Name: Danah Last Name: Woodworth City: Middleton Province: Nova Scotia E-mail Address: danahwoodworth@hotmail.com Comments: Hey guys just wanted to touch base with everyone, and I like Ken Young have been away with health problems....but I too have been following the site, and i think that maybe a stronger group, ie...and association would be a good thing. If you need the help let me know, as i have experience in Associations and things and am available to you all.....get better soon Ken! And thanks again Art for all this information! Glad to see you back Dana... I thought you and Ken Young had run off together !! -Art _________________________________________________________ August 21, 2005 From: Marilynn Doherty DIOXINS AND FURANS "...There are 210 different dioxins and furans. All dioxins have the same basic  chemical "skeleton", and they all have chlorine atoms as part of their  make-up....The one considered most toxic is referred to as 2,3,7,8-TCDD,  or  simply TCDD." "Dioxins and furans can travel long distances in the atmosphere,..." Here is the full article:  http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/iyh-vsv/environ/dioxin_e.html _____________________________________________________________ August 21, 2005 First Name: Susan Last Name: Evans City: Port Coquitlam Province: BC E-mail Address: susanevans@telus.net Comments: I lived in Burton just outside of CFB Gagetown from 1962 to 1968 as my father was stationed there.I now suffer from migraines and had hypothyroidism from 1988 until 2005 then it appeared as if the thyroid problem disappeared,no it appears that i am in the stages of hyperthyroidism although 2 doctors have told me that they had never heard of this happening.I am now in the process of being diagnosed as to what is actually happening with my thyroid.I moved from Nova Scotia to British Columbia 2 weeks after being told there was something unusually wrong with my thyroid and because of the move had to find a new doctor.I also have severe migraines and have had headaches since i was a child ________________________________________________________________________ August 20, 2005 First Name: Marc Last Name: MacLean City: Province: E-mail Address: Comments: It would be the end of August when the foliage of the forest and brush was at its peak during the growth season when the herbicides would be applied. It would be pointless and a waste of money to apply it at any other time of year. In September the soldiers based there and from all around the country would begin to congregate in the swamp ridden and mosquito infested training area. The maneuvers, usually called a Rendez Vous would continue until October. There would be up to 10,000 men and women soldiers participating and living in this area. This is just the one of many exercises throughout the year that I describe. The defoliation would have been necessary to prepare the land to be able to accommodate villages of tents and soldiers. The ranges would have been sprayed to keep them clear of brush and trees. Vast open fields were laid waste and barren because this was a maintenance plan that was applied every year to form the training area into something armies could realistically train and move about on; every year from Gagetown's inception until present day. I even suspect dirt roadways were sprayed to keep them clear of any growth, and you can imagine the dust we ingested from convoys of military vehicles moving on them while riding in the back of an open deuce troop truck. I think a good location to check would be the vehicle wash station where we washed a thousand vehicles after and during these exercises. Think of the tons of mud and dirt washed off the filthy vehicle returning from the training area, all in one location. Dioxin should be present there if anywhere. This site wasn't all that far from the PMQs either. In the six or 8 weeks we were out there, and at this time of year we would be covering the ground that was sprayed weeks earlier in such intimate ways only a soldier could know. To supplement our rations and learn survival skills, any wildlife was free game,. A soldier's water canteen ration was never enough when tactical, so the many water sources were used without hesitation. The berries, swamp reeds, and many other sources of vegetative nutrition were also exploited. The gum off the trees bark was the only sort of chewing gum out there. Keep in mind it was only a few weeks before that about 4000 acres of this area was sprayed with several hundreds of thousands of liters of deadly toxic chemicals. The defoliants would have run off the dead foliage by now and would have fallen to the ground where it would wait for the morning dew or a rain to begin its migration through the soil to the local aqueducts and low lying swamps. When the rains did come then of course the saturation of the soil would cause the toxic soup to push to the surface. An infantryman soldier lives in this soup as intimately as the resident wildlife. Much of it would turn to dust waiting for a rain, just waiting to be disturbed into the air by the movement of soldiers and their heavy machines through the area. Picture the colossal disturbance of dirt and dust when an army of tanks and soldiers move through. The dust cloud on a dry day is choking and clings to everything. The modern soldier in those conditions might see a shower once a week. The rest of the time a lake or some sort of natural water source would have to do. You might find yourself on one of these dusty advances for a week at a time. No one can tell me different this time; most of us were not soaked in the stuff but the environment we lived in for up 8-10 months of the year, for several years, was polluted with toxic chemicals and I am sick as a result of it. I just can't take anymore politicians who have led lives quite different than mine, and who couldn't for a moment imagine it, tell me all is OK, and there was nothing toxic about it. Walk a mile, or even better, a thousand miles in my combat boots through defoliated fields and forests; I won't even ask you to ingest anything, and then tell me such baloney. My medical records show that as soon as I arrived in Gagetown I began to show the symptoms. I was about the thinnest but fastest of the bunch I was with. I think the lack of fat on my body at the time is why I showed the symptoms so quickly. When I think of the soldiers around me I realize now why so many of the thin built seemed to have a sleeping sickness and just weren't as pink cheeked as the larger people. Warmest regards to all As always thank you for your thought provoking words Marc -Art ________________________________________________________________________ August 20, 2005 From Wayne Coady Joyce: I will keep you up to speed on what is taking place and I am sure that if you follow the site, you will get a better understanding of what we are doing.   I would say in time we will get a group together. When I get back next week I will be offering myself up to Ken , Art or anyone who has a project related to our situation to work on it or with then. Stay tuned and have you joined the class action yet ? If so then that a good first place to start .   Take Care Wayne C From: Wayne Coady   I do believe we need an organized group to make a stand and be heard. I live in Connecticut now but was a victim of the spray in the late 50's and early 60's as I lived in Upper Gagetown for 19 yrs before moving away. I have had numerous illness throughout the years as well as a lot of my relatives in that area and friends either died young from not so sure what the cause was to strokes, heart ailments, cancer and respiratory failure which I believed was caused by the spraying. We continue to eat fruit, berries and vegetables  without proper washing as we were children who were used to picking and eating as we never had any reason to fear of being poisoned. I remember running inside thinking it was fun to be covered with white spray. I really think in order to make a difference we need to be an association as this seems to be the only time the government will listen, we need the media to be on our side and keep broadcasting this. I know you were looking for Mr.. Blaney, a few years ago he was in Oromocto, NB., not sure where he is now.   I would like  very much to join force with you but not sure how this can be done as I'm not in reaching distance, only thing I can do is send e-mails to the government officials. Please keep me informed. Regards, Joyce Bova     ______________________________________________________________________ August 20, 2005 From: Ken Dobbie Hi everyone...   FYI ...the following link are the people who will be doing the analysis of the samples from the training area.     http://www.rpc.ca/rpcinfo.html   Ken ____________________________________________________________ August 20, 2005 From: Ken Dobbie Dear associates....   I found this link and although some of it is already known, I would recommend having a read of this just to refresh ourselves with the basics and some things we may not have known...   http://members.tripod.com/~Firebase_Freedom/24d.html   regards,   Kenneth _______________________________________________________________ August 20, 2005 First Name: Wayne Last Name: Coady City: Cole Harbour Province: Nova Scotia E-mail Address: wcoady@accesswave.ca Comments: The U.S. government has admitted that from 1961 to 1974 it dropped 72 million liters of chemicals on the tiny country of Vietnam, most of it being Agent Orange with a super toxic strain of dioxin called TCCD. The dioxin has rooted itself in the soil, spread through the water into the food chain and from there into human blood, breast milk, and fetuses. So how much TCCD, was there in the agent orange sprayed at Base Gagetown? http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0607-05.htm _________________________________________________________________ August 20, 2005 First Name: Marc Last Name: MacLean City: Province: E-mail Address: Comments: Who are these soldiers reporting the barrel sites, if they're not us? Anyone know? Where are these sites located? Are they the same sites reported the last 2 times we were hoodwinked? I need to see maps of these locations. Who knows really? Is this what's considered open so far no maps, no names, no grid references. I can pretty well confirm with my xp in that training area if these sites could be valid or not. I'm picturing phoney soldiers reporting pre-selected sites so to be able to say the same they said in the 80's. Should we be concerned or elated Jody may soon become a member of Mr. Lord's cabinet? Warm Regards All _________________________________________________________________ August 20, 2005 From: Marcc Maclean Hello Art,   My submission for the day…..   Things I need to know,   1)      Details (complete) regarding spray programs at CFB Gagetown and other bases across Canada. This would include…   -         Marked contour maps of sprayed areas. -         Chemicals used. -         Amounts used. -         CFTO “Canadian Forces Technical Orders” on exactly what techniques and principles were used in the defoliants application. -         All research as a product of the program. Canadian and US.   2)      Environmental impact questions   -         Dioxin & HCB levels in wildlife, earth “at different levels”, water, swamp & bog sediment, bivouac areas, ranges, large open “dead” fields, and people “soldiers and civilians known to be there for years. *consulting World Health Organization standards. -         Does Lands & Forest or Fisheries & Wildlife collect such info on hunted wildlife within training area? Sure they do. -         Does NB Health have info on “cancer clusters” within affected area? Every cancer in NB is reported to health authorities. I suspect birth abnormalities are also.   3)      Is the science legitimate?   -         It’s a Canadian company who is involved in the latest major study of the US Vietnam defoliation study at Ben Hoa, Veitnam. There must already be good science within its report that would be useful as a reference compared to DND’s sole “biased” reference, the IOM. -         Are Meg Sears’ suggestions being implemented?     Just a start, and certainly no where near complete.   * Don’t let DND lead you by the nose in selecting test areas within the base’s training area. We need to ensure all possible areas where these chemicals would migrate to are tested.     Warm Regards, Marc   All excellent points Marc! -Art ________________________________________________________________________ August 19, 2005 Name: Wayne Last Name: Coady City: Cole Harbour Province: Nova Scotia E-mail Address: wcoady@accesswave.ca Comments: Agent Orange study leader tours Gagetown base. It sounds like they are going to do just what Ken Young, said they would do. They are not only going to inflate the numbers, but they are going to try to leave the impression this crap was sprayed every place, road and powerline, this being the case then maybe the provincial government shouyld also be held accountable. I also heard from a person that the federal government has authorized more spraying at Gagetown, well I would think that they hold off until the testing of the chemical that are already there has been done, or are they doing this for another reason, like I smell COVER UP. Maybe Jody could look into this and if it is the case then bring it to a full stop. This is were our political parties can show us their support. http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1124482373827 _119891573/?hub=Canada ____________________________________________________________________ August 19, 2005 Leader of dioxin study on N.B. Military base gets first-hand look http://www.macleans.ca/topstories/news/shownews.jsp?content=n081923A ________________________________________________________________ First Name: Kenneth Last Name: Young City: Nanaimo Province: BC E-mail Address: Kentar@telus.net Comments: Hi guys, I have been away (Medical reasons) and still am but I do look to this site when ever I can. Some points of note, I am some what worried at the numbers stated in some of the forums; example 150,000 soldiers have passed through Gagetown during the time of the spraying dates. Now at first look this might seem to be a good thing, you know lots of people to be on our team so to speak however, it is more lightly that they chose a higher number to bring down the percentages of sick and dead, so that the problem seems less drastic then it is. It would be in the best interest of the Government and the Military to have larger start numbers but lower percentages of affected personal then the other way. Facts are that if they can make the numbers large enough at the start, the better it is for them. They could be listing people that would have had no possibility of contact with Agent Orange to dilute the mix. The higher the number the lower the percentage sick and dead or in effect a more national, normal percent of cancer victims and so that they can later clam that there doesnÂ’t seem to be any problem. The USA did the same thing for Vietnam Vets, in that they totaled all personal that ever set foot in country as the test block, even when they knew that there was little or no chance that any of the admin personal had any contact with Agent Orange. So in some ways adding all years to date and all personal that may have ever seen Gagetown in passing to the list is more likely to be to the benefit of the Government and not to benefit of the victims of this spraying. Secondly, Associations are great and we will need one eventually, when we have something to get a grip on, such as making sure that the funds put in place are spent where they should be but at this time I for one prefer that the Government has to deal with us on a one to one basis, and through as many MPÂ’s as possible. So far they have no idea how many people we are and from where the next sand in the ointment (so to speak) will come from and that is in my view good. By ourselves we have the right; no more the duty to contact each of our MPÂ’s to complain about this but as an Association we will be expected to deal with only one. Right at this time I think an Association would hold us back, keep us in line and tent to give us only one voice in this matter. As we are right now the Government doesnÂ’t know where their next question is going to come from and for that matter what the question will be. Sort of keeps them on their toes. Well that is my two cents worth. Ken Young Well your email has made my day!!!!...Good to see ya bud...we were worried about you. There was a story going around about you winning the lottery and running away with a pair of Swedish twins. I told people you would never do that!!!...  I would ....but not you :)  Good to know you have been following things here. You look after your health and know that we are all sending positive vibes Ken! -Art _______________________________________________________________________ August 19, 2005 From: Marc Maclean Hello Art, I was doing some research on the technical differences in defoliating Gagetown and its northern species of trees vs Vietnam’s sort of trees which would be quite different when comparing their leaf surface. I got to thinking there must be application differences that might give me more detail into exactly how the stuff was applied. Anyway, This link piqued my interest especially when it denied me access. Note the date and the location. Could this be one of the actual reports written in conclusion of our US test spray program? I think so. Please pass it along for the perusal to those you see fit. Let me know what you think. http://www.nal.usda.gov/speccoll/findaids/agentorange/catalog/00030.HTML Warm Regards, Marc Excellent find Marc!!  it sure looks like a report for Gagetown. -Art _______________________________________________________________________ August 19, 2005 From: Wayne Coady Ken, maybe we should post an online petition requesting the government do just that? The petition could be posted on Arts Agent Orange site. I really think a public inquiry would help in the class action case, it is a good way to collect documented information. Once the petition is up, then we all can make it our duty to send it out to the media and request a possible link. CTV , Global and CBC surely will help out with this.   Regards and Ken I hope you are feeling better. I will be fully available to assist you in any way I can on the first week in September. I will do research, or any thing else, it time we all took up a task, we should not expect you to do it all. I would like to see you get on the Fact Finding Committee, now that would give me some comfort.   Later and God bless you Ken   Wayne Coady __________________________________________________________________________ August 19, 2005 From: kenneth Dobbie Wayne....   I support a call for a public inquiry 150%....   Kenneth ___________________________________________________________________  August 19, 2005 5:53 PM   From: Wayne Coady Dear Fellow Agent Orange Victims: What do you think about calling for a Public Inquiry, this fact finding committee is really not going to do any good. We need a form where we can get to the bottom of this.   Wayne Coady   ______________________________________________________________________ August 19, 2005 From: Wayne Coady My Reply to Marilynn's thoughts. From:   Marilynn Doherty To:       Agent Orange Forum Re: Forming an Association, our stand on the Task Force and a Public Inquiry After reading many of the inputs about forming an Association, and giving this a lot of thought,  I must say that I've taken a 360 degree turn around and believe now that we would be a more powerful, recognized group under such a banner.  My only question is how would we reach people outside of this website to let them know of our existence?  We need as many members as we can get nationally and internationally. Well we can get links with out sites that hold similar interest and we could ask the government to assist after all, they are interested in helping or at least they say they are, so lets check them out!!! As to asking for a public inquiry, I don't think that now is the time.  Let the process run its course, wait for the results and then ask for one.  All they'll say at this point to such a request is that they'd have to wait until the Task Force completes their job anyway.  Once we have the results, we can call in experts from our side to refute/question their methods and findings and fight back publicly.   Why not have have a public inquiry in place and have the task force report to it, the information collected by the task force is just that information and Mr Blaney and his committee are nothing more than an investigative tool. They should have to report to the public inquiry and as you know a public inquiry reports to parliament. What I think we need to do, immediately, is to first and foremost: 1)                  Form an Association. Yes agrreed 2)                  Put in place a broad collection of people/groups who are interested in this issue and who will become involved on our behalf and take up our cause.  i.e. David Suzuki, who Wayne has contacted already, Opposition PC and NDP members/critics both federally and provincially, and environmental lobbying groups such as the two below. Yes I agree Environmental Lobbying Groups: Yes I agree Two organizations that come to mind are: a)      The Sierra Club http://www.sierraclub.ca/activist-publication.  We should contact Elizabeth May, the Canadian head of this international group. They are a very strong, powerful organization and extremely active in environmental issues.  ( OK ) agree b)      Greenpeace at http://www.greenpeace.ca/e (YES OK I AGREE ) Both of these organizations have a lot of political clout and we need them on our side, especially the Sierra Club.  They should be made aware of our cause, receive all copies of our correspondence and be made aware of our Association and of Art and Ken's website.   I agree but we must not let these groups steal out mandate or take the light off of our situation , if we form an association then Ken and Art will be our voice, not Greenpeace or the Serria Club. Opposition Members in the Federal Government (and Provincial):    Yes agreed, but they should be addressing this as we speak, this is an environmental mess and  "these guys should be on this NOW. PM Paul Martin has said that he intends to call an election next year after the Gomery inquiry results are in.  The last thing he wants between now and then is any negativity towards his government that would affect his re-election.  We have an advantage here, the timing is right and we should use this opportunity now to ensure that the Agent Orange issue stays alive and "in their faces".   I agree , this is why we need to pull together fast. To me, the best way to do this is by contacting all federal and provincial opposition critics.  The PC and NDP parties are looking for issues to embarrass the government and will keep nailing away at them in the House during Question Period if they have ammo.  We need to feed information to these Ministers to use, especially to the opposition critics responsible for Defence, health and the environment.    ( They have this information and they can get their hands on much more than we can right now, after all it is they who hide behind the freedom of Inforamation Act . We hire these people to work for us, so once we have an association, we can send out communications through our Spokespeople. It is all about pressure. First, we need to find out who the PC and NDP opposition critics are for the various departments and a starting point would be here.  The same with provincial MLA's:      I think we should be going after our Federal Members of Parliament for funds to set up our Agent Orange Association, this will tell us who is willing to help us out and who is not. http://www.parl.gc.ca/common/SenatorsMembers_house.asp?Language=E&Parl=38&Ses=1&Sect=hoccur The media:  Once again , if and when an association is formed, we can do news releases. The media will automatically come on board if issues are raised in the House on an ongoing basis.  Political pressure from opposition members in the House of Commons is the only way to accomplish anything and right now is the best opportunity for us to begin making this happen. (I agree ) We are dealing with a system and have to use the system against them. (I agree, all we have to do is play by their own rules and use their own legislative laws) These are just my thoughts and I'll be interested to hear from others.  I'll help in any way I can.     Marilynn   Well Marilynn your thoughts are dam good thoughts, so what do all of the others think, are we going to sink or are we going to swim ?    Thanks Marilynn Wayne C ______________________________________________________________________ August 19, 2005 From: Marilynn Doherty To: Agent Orange Forum Re: Forming an Association, our stand on the Task Force and a Public Inquiry After reading many of the inputs about forming an Association, and giving this a lot of thought, I must say that I’ve taken a 360 degree turn around and believe now that we would be a more powerful, recognized group under such a banner. My only question is how would we reach people outside of this website to let them know of our existence? We need as many members as we can get nationally and internationally. As to asking for a public inquiry, I don’t think that now is the time. Let the process run its course, wait for the results and then ask for one. All they’ll say at this point to such a request is that they’d have to wait until the Task Force completes their job anyway. Once we have the results, we can call in experts from our side to refute/question their methods and findings and fight back publicly. What I think we need to do, immediately, is to first and foremost: Form an Association. Put in place a broad collection of people/groups who are interested in this issue and who will become involved on our behalf and take up our cause. i.e. David Suzuki, who Wayne has contacted already, Opposition PC and NDP members/critics both federally and provincially, and environmental lobbying groups such as the two below. Environmental Lobbying Groups: Two organizations that come to mind are: The Sierra Club http://www.sierraclub.ca/activist-publication. We should contact Elizabeth May, the Canadian head of this international group. They are a very strong, powerful organization and extremely active in environmental issues. Greenpeace at http://www.greenpeace.ca/e Both of these organizations have a lot of political clout and we need them on our side, especially the Sierra Club. They should be made aware of our cause, receive all copies of our correspondence and be made aware of our Association and of Art and Ken’s website. Opposition Members in the Federal Government (and Provincial): PM Paul Martin has said that he intends to call an election next year after the Gomery inquiry results are in. The last thing he wants between now and then is any negativity towards his government that would affect his re-election. We have an advantage here, the timing is right and we should use this opportunity now to ensure that the Agent Orange issue stays alive and "in their faces". To me, the best way to do this is by contacting all federal and provincial opposition critics. The PC and NDP parties are looking for issues to embarrass the government and will keep nailing away at them in the House during Question Period if they have ammo. We need to feed information to these Ministers to use, especially to the opposition critics responsible for Defence, health and the environment. First, we need to find out who the PC and NDP opposition critics are for the various departments and a starting point would be here. The same with provincial MLA’s: http://www.parl.gc.ca/common/SenatorsMembers_house.asp?Language=E&Parl=38&Ses=1&Sect=hoccur The media: The media will automatically come on board if issues are raised in the House on an ongoing basis. Political pressure from opposition members in the House of Commons is the only way to accomplish anything and right now is the best opportunity for us to begin making this happen. We are dealing with a system and have to use the system against them. These are just my thoughts and I’ll be interested to hear from others. I’ll help in any way I can.  Marilynn _____________________________________________________________________ August 19, 2005 From: Wayne Coady Dear Doctor Suzuki:   My name is Wayne Coady and I just happen to be one of those soldiers and civilians affected by the spraying of Agent Orange at base Gagetown.   We all know what these defoliants did to the people of Vietnam, and I am learning more, only because it is now affecting me now. This is what happens isn't it, we are dumbed down by our "government" to believe and trust it.   It makes me sick to learn this took place in Canada and it make me ever sicker, to have let it happened. But then again we were never told or informed about any of the chemicals used on the base, we were not educated to the dangers.   Since you are associated with CBC ,what would the changes be that you might do a program on the spraying of Agent Orange in and around the communities of  Base Gagetown?   I see it as an educational for our youth and maybe just maybe, should they ever find themselves in a political position, they will make more informed decisions based on good science, not based on money or greed.   Thank You for you time and consideration   Regards   Wayne Coady _______________________________________________________________________   August 19, 2005   First Name: Marc Last Name: MacLean City: Province: E-mail Address: Comments: Thanks Meg Sears!! I sure hope you'll continue to post. I very much look fwd to your in _______________________________________________________________________ August 19, 2005 From: Meg Sears Gosh, what a story, Wayne! TCDD is the usual shortform for 2,3,7,8-tetrachlorodibenzo-p-dioxin.  It is dioxin with four chlorine atoms on the carbon atoms that are numbered 2,3,7 and (you guessed it!) 8.  Dioxin has 8 possible places where chlorine atoms can attach, so there are many variations, from dioxin with no chlorine atoms, to eight. If you measure toxicity in one particular way, 2,3,7,8-TCDD is particularly toxic.  This measurement of "aryl hydrocarbon receptor binding" happens to be relatively easy.  You can do it with chemicals in the lab.  This one test has been used to rank the toxicities of dioxin, furans, PCBs and other chemicals including hexachlorobenzene, with TCDD used as the standard, "most toxic" compound.  Discovery of this test was the apparent salvation of firms and governments that had to deal with recognition of toxicities of chemicals they were involved with.  This single test is the basis for regulations on discharge of toxic chemicals around the world.  Personally I think this is a bit of a scam, since the corollary to this is that many dioxins are deemed to be non-toxic, which I don't believe for a minute.  Toxicity to an organism cannot be measured using a single test any more than the size of a house can be measured with a single measurement in one dimension.  It has been very handy for the chemical companies, though, because they have been able to continue to produce 2,4-D and many other chemicals that are contaminated with the supposedly non-toxic dioxins, with impunity. Meg ________________________________________________________________________ August 19, 2005   From: Wayne Coady   Hi Jody:    I found this information on the net do you know anything about TCCD what is it? The article stated " Agent Orange contains one of the most virulent poisons known to man, a strain of dioxin called TCCD " . Jody maybe we should get Doctor David Suzuki involved . Have you requested that the Fact Finding Committee consider bringing Ken on board as the victims representative? Regards Wayne Coady  http://www.bhopal.org/spectreorange.html   _________________________________________________________________________   August 19, 2005 First Name: Wayne Last Name: Coady City: Cole Harbour Province: Nova Scotia E-mail Address: wcoady@accesswave.ca Comments: Hi Art: Well when I put the thought out there to form an association, it was just that a suggestion and as you agree someday we might have to do just that. So, we can put that aside Art for now, but what about a full blown public inquiry? An inquiry would be a much more open process and more informative than a fact finding mission. My fear is who are these facts being collected for? A Public Inquiry would be a much better form and we would get to see all the facts. How about posting an online petition Art on the site for all to sign. I will do everything I can to insure it gets out to as many people as I can. I have a few good contacts who will push it on a national level. Regards ________________________________________________________________________ August 19, 2005   From: Wayne Coady   Hi Ken and associates.    Well there is a difference between being a group and being a recognized association. I would like nothing better than to see you and Art stay at the wheel , but as leaders who represent a membership whose purpose is seek out truth and justice.   As you have stated Ken, you have been out of the loop because of illness caused by AO and you have also been busy working furiously on the Affidavit .    I do not expect you or Art to do all the work, I expect that we all should take on a task and assist. It is without question you have a very good sence of the direction we must take to achieve our main objective.   You are a leader and a very good spokesperson, this is where your time should be spent. After all Ken, your health is your life and I do not want to see you fall to fatigue, that will not benefit you , your family or anyone on this site.   All we need  is a formal group and the membership can fall under your care, no one need know how many members we have, or who they are. No fee's paid, no funds collected, just keep it simple and non profit.   Just look at the groups "government" pays attention to, Sierra, Greenpeace, Mother Against Drunk Drivers and the Council of Canadians. We too need the ear of "government" , all I am saying lets make our presents be known. By the sounds of the stories I have heard and read about those who are affected by Agent Orange, we all have onething in common, we are ill. So if nothing else, we must come together as "patients" who want their rights protected. We are all victims of a criminal act against humanity.   I rest my case, all I want is to be a member and a helper, I want no glory or fame, just justice.   I hope we all give this hard consideration.   Regards Wayne Coady ________________________________________________________ August 19, 2005 From: Kenneth Dobbie Hello Everyone   I have been out of the loop for the past five or six days and I have not been responding much to emails that have been sent my way. Forgive me for not replying but health sometimes interferes with my abilities to remain proactive.   Now having read everyone's responses and carefully evaluating what everyone has said and then evaluating how I feel about the issue of an association, I have to say that at present I am in favour of establishing perhaps not an association but some formal group. I guess that would be an association.   However, there are a lot of valid points brought up by a lot of people as to why there should be one and why there shouldn't be one.   I recognize that our class action does not represent everyone. The 700 applications that the DVA has received represent some of them, but then there are people who have applied to the DVA and are members of the class action, not many, but there are some. The point is that the class action does not represent everyone. I recognize that all too clearly and I have been wrestling with what we could do to become more proactive in all of this.   Being on the inside is best, that means that somehow we have to pressure the government for some of us or one of us to be appointed, like Mr. Blaney, to the fact finding committees. How do we do that if we do not have a proactive group (association). I am not sure. I know that existing organizations have their own agendas and we cannot depend on them as Sandy has pointed out.   So how do we achieve being on the inside? By working strenuously as a group to achieve this.   I stood up and told my story to the CBC, then at the CFB Gagetown meeting and cited the government for their spraying, then all of a sudden, because of a lot of people coming forward,  the military's complacency exploded to the point where we now have a government that is hastily trying to put together a plan that will appease us to some degree. But I see their efforts as being flawed and insincere. Since when does a government that is trying to be transparent "appoint" someone...that to me just raised my hackles more...and made me realize that the enemy is really trying to outfox us, so we have to play the game and try to get inside their organization or at the very least question every decision or remark that they make.   I am not a person who seeks glory or importance, but I am a person who seeks the truth and one person can only do so much. It takes all of us as a cohesive entity, acting together to achieve more than has been achieved already. We have come a long way in three months since Mrs Sellar (who by the way is a wonderful lady) started all this by coming forward as one person.   I, too, was one person, then we became many as we shared our experiences, our traumas, our deaths and our illnesses, it will take all of us acting together to achieve the end result of forcing the truth. The class action may do that, then again it may not. We cannot wait for that to happen. We have to be proactive and that means working together as a group. Yes, we already do that, but we also are not that.   In other words, I am not sure that Wayne is correct, nor am I sure that he is incorrect. I need more time to study the situation and right now I don't have that time as I am working furiously on the Affidavit and since I lost the past week to illness...I have little time to debate the issue, I think that everyone has given tremendous input and I have read everyone's position over and over trying to see what it is that we could do.   So, I am going to ask you all to think hard about this and how we can achieve the best results.   Be it by an association or a tight group that has formed because of our perspectives and illnesses, we need to work hard with what the government has handed us, because as Meg said the train is leaving the station and we need to be aboard it.   I am rambling once again, the damn pain has me taking my Demerol and sometimes I don't make a lot of sense when I take it...   forgive me for being the devil's advocate, but I sincerely believe that together we can do more to uncover the truth.   And having said all that, I am now not sure where I stand because as I said, I am not sure what path to follow except that I know we have to confront this fact finding committee business. Does anyone have a contact number for Mr. Blaney because I would love to either call him or see him. I will be going to Nova Scotia for ten days and spending five of those days in a friends house which hangs over a cliff over the ocean...paradise on earth...but I would like the opportunity to see this Mr. Blaney...any ideas of contact with him??   Kenneth Dobbie ____________________________________________________________ August 18, 2005 From: Jody Carr MLA  The Federal gov't has announced yesterday that they will support and initiate a thorough independent review. At this point in time I  personally think the decision is the right one. I think it is  reasonable. I don't want to pretend I know how frustrated you feel. But  yesterday was no easy task to get accomplished, the gov't is making an attempt to get to the bottom of it. I personally am cautious too, but would like to help them make it work. I will not lose sight of the fact  that even after yesterday we have not one more person helped. I will personally help to keep pushing it forward and push to make it honest and open. We need action and results. I think yesterday was a positive step in the right direction and I know you and others have interest in making sure people are helped and that nothing slips through the cracks and information is not buried.    I am not sure if a lawsuit would happen  any quicker or be better. Perhaps maybe longer. And in the end who would  get the most out it? Probably the lawyers on both sides. The government  acknowledged yesterday finally that there was a problem with the entire spray program and are prepared to look into it. They have asked for a  series of reports to be done and as  they come back during the year they will make further decisions about how to proceed. I am currently  reviewing the documents from yesterday and will be making  recommendations on ways to ensure a high level of accountability and  openess. A peer review is an example. Maybe an advisory comiitee to the lead fact finder with someone like Art Connolly or Meg Sears appointed.  In the next couple weeks I will put forward a few recommendations  regarding this. ________________________________________________________________ August 18, 2005 First Name: Wayne Last Name: Coady City: Cole Harbour Province: Nova Scotia E-mail Address: wcoady@accesswave.ca Comments: Here are the two replies from Lloyd and Marilynn when I decided to drop the idea. I still think it is worth doing. Wayne Coady Wayne I am not saying your idea is bad and if there is support go for it. You may even change my mind. I served in the RCDÂ’S IN Gagetown from 1964 to 1967 then went on to Signal Corps and RCEME. Lloyd --------------------------------------------------------- Wayne Not really. We haven't heard what the others think yet. I think your idea is a good one and an important one, Wayne, but I also think we're accomplishing this to a certain extent on Art's website, don't you? What more could an Association offer us? Regards, Marilynn ___________________________________________________________ August 18, 2005 From: Wayne Coady Lloyd: Well when your dealing with "government" bureaucrats they tend to ignore individuals, the media tend to listen more to groups, especially if there is a large issue and it looks as if the numbers are high in the group. Yes Ken and Art have done a wondeful job, but you watch, as time goes on they will become faded memories to the bureaucrat, to the media and to the politican. This fact finding committee is a joke, we need to at least come together and push for a public inquiry. It is not important that the :government" know how large the membership is , but it is important that they understand there is a potential for a large membership. Numbers move these people and Ken and Art are wonderful spokespersons and I would not want that to change, but what happens, if something happens "God" forbide to them, where will the movement be then? The website is wonderful and if Ken or Art were to die, then so does the site and all the work they have done. Both Ken and Art live in the Ontario close to Ottawa, this is a plus and todate as far as Ottawa is concern , Ken and Art speak only on behalf of themselves, there is no association or other persons being represented. The web site does not represent a body of people, it is a form and only a form as far as "government " is concerned. There is not much more that I can say on this issue, except waite and see or call Ottawa DVA and ask of any known registered groups who represent the victims of Agent Orange? There is nothing other than the class action claim that I signed onto which is there to work for my claim, this is why we need an ADVOCACY ORGANIZATION. Until then we are all on our own. Thus I think thev day will come we will wish we had an organization and Lloyd you are right some associations fall apart over people looking for power, but we may have to form a group. I too was at Gagetown in 66 and 67 in the RCD, and then I went onto the Fort Gerry Armour Regiment........... the rest is history. WayneCoady     Hi Wayne:   You bring up some really valid points. This forum was created for the exchange of ideas and I always enjoy reading your thoughts. Your idea of an association is a good idea but I am not sure that now is the time for it. That does not mean that I think it will not be necessary. I will repeat I am not sure now is the time for it.   You are correct in stating that the government listens more to groups. The government IS listening to our GROUP. My sources in the nation's capital tell me that Ottawa monitors the site everyday. On August 12, 2005 I wrote a little editorial on this forum page stating that I felt the feds were stalling and that I thought I would start investigating the 4 contaminated sites that are in the PMQ areas of Gagetown. Four days later there is a press conference announcing the federal plans. Coinicidence?...Maybe...but my sources tell me otherwise. Im sure the 4 contaminated sites will be revealed at a later date and cleaned if not already.   I appreciate your kind words about Ken and I and our efforts. He and I like to think of ourselves as the "Grumpy Old Men" of social activism. If Ken and I die the work will not stop. There are too many lives that have been damaged. There are too many lives that have been lost. There are too many survivors who will honour the memory of their loved ones. So rest assured there would be a couple of more old bald guys who would step up to the plate ...and a couple of more after them :)  This story is not going away. The characters may leave but the story remains.   Meg Sears makes an interesting observation in the entry below she says:   "However, since there is a process being set in motion with the right components, there should be truly independent peer input / review of research proposals, before they get off the ground.  We'll get more action more quickly by working with what is happening.  Money is being spent, so lets see if something good can come of that."   If this review is taking the time and effort to do the right thing then it needs to realize that it needs people involved that the public deems trustworthy I dont mean more former politicians. It needs people working with the review to question the process. It needs people involved to offer ideas that the public has offered. It needs people involved that the public can feel comfortable approaching as well as advising and consulting. As Meg says "Money is being spent, so lets see if something good can come of that."  If they dont do the right thing the first time the public will make them do it again.   I am suggesting that the review choose members for an advisory committe / board/ task-force to ensure that the public can see a transparent process.   If that doesn't work Wayne we create your association.   Just some thoughts ...   -Art _________________________________________________________________________ August 18, 2005 From: Meg Sears Just in case you misinterpreted it,  I shared an excerpt of an email from me TO Jody Carr.  I was warning him that they are setting up the polished actors but behind the scenes things are not happening according to what Jody had been promised. Jody seems to hold these people in high regard, which shouldn't be taken too lightly.  However, appointees will not necessarily be independent of the appointers - that is something that I cannot judge.  (Of course, who would be in charge of a public inquiry?)  However, since there is a process being set in motion with the right components, there should be truly independent peer input / review of research proposals, before they get off the ground.  We'll get more action more quickly by working with what is happening.  Money is being spent, so lets see if something good can come of that. Perhaps you could expand upon how the components of what is being set up are or are not what would take place during a public inquiry.  The one thing that I see missing is exploration of the history of how this came to pass, with government (US, Canada, provincial??) and corporate collusion and cover-up of toxic messes.  (this continues with pesticide registration to this very day!)  I would dearly love to see this exposed, but it would be difficult.  Multi-billion dollar industries are working against it. In the meantime, doing what will lead to help for victims and demonstrating the magnitude of the problem would be an excellent first step towards demonstrating publicly the need for an inquiry.  That is why getting the science right at this stage is critically important.  Otherwise the cover-up is continuing, and that is happening already with the environmental sampling.  They're planning to look in the wrong places for the wrong stuff, and come back saying that everything is clean.  Analyses requested are not even consistent with the Canadian Environmenal Protection Act (as a minimum they should be doing all "Track 1" dioxins - they are not even doing that.  I opinion is that they should include some others, known to contaminate the herbicides used).  Finding nothing on the ground would go a ways to pulling the rug out from under your feet. take care, Meg ________________________________________________________________________ August 18, 2005 From: Sandy Skipton well Wayne, in my opinion, everyone is bogged down Government, Military, DVA, Legion.. that is why we are a special group of people that will not stop. WE ARE ALREADY A GROUP... again what would be the aims of an association, to bond us together? I think we are that already. I have gone out of my way to meet anyone that is within my area. I have emailed those farther away.. even to the point of emailing comfort notes when I feel they are down. I have received many such emails myself. I admire Ken Dobbie and Art. I have met Ken Dobbie and he and I have shared a lot of info. I know if I meet Art we will be like 'brother and sister'... The website agentorangealert.com has already formed us into a group.   Now, would such an association be able to help me better find a lab that I need to test my husbands tissue to prove his exposure? Would such an association get us better medical information? Can we all drive to Ottawa to present our views? I am sure we can and even without the title of association... so convince me (us) that an association would carry more weight that a group... please   Most of us will work with any government office for the benefit of all, just ask us. Ken Dobbie has done more than any of us but then that is his nature... in an association we would likely elect him to do the task he is already doing... Art has done a lot too, again he would likely get elected to do just what he is doing... WE ARE BONDED INTO A SPECIAL GROUP... no fancy name but the bonding is pretty tight... believe me I am not puttting down your idea but I do need to be convince that another association is needed being free to speak as a citizen or serveral or a thousand citizens is just as strong....    Sandy _________________________________________________________________ August 18, 2005 From: Marilynn I tend to agree with Lloyd and feel that we already have an "association" of sorts on Art and Ken's website but I understand where you're coming from, Wayne.  They're doing an amazing job and these sites are well known now for being the central hub for up-to-date news and happenings re this issue and a channel for all of us to interact.   Just my thoughts.  Marilynn _____________________________________________________________________ August 18, 2005 From: Llyd Teakles    Wayne             I have as much to gain or lose in this fight against the government as anyone else. I have no interest in forming an association I believe we are of one accord in this fight. It is my opinion that Ken and Art are doing a great job.             I have belonged to several associations in my life and sooner or later they defeat there purpose because like the government they get out of control and forget why they were established.             Lloyd ________________________________________________________________________ August 18, 2005 From: Wayne Coady Dear Data Needed :     Well speaking about 'The Royal Canadian Legion' , I have heard that they are bogged down in trying to assist war vets with their pensions and we all know that they are a struggling association, because they lack resources and personnel.   I would like to see those of us affected by this problem stay together and carry our own battle rather than depend on an all ready over loaded association that deals with a wide range of problems. Lets face it, we all know what problems are created when groups become overloaded, little to know attention will be placed on our problem, thus over time thing will fade away.   The Legion can only do so much, it is up to us to carry our own problem forward, why should we let someone else fight our battle and then again maybe they can't. Who better to understand the mess than those of us who are affected and besides, solidarity is what it will take to present our situation.  There are those of us who have signed on to this class action, why, because we know that it is our best hope and if we are together as a large association, then we can lobby for a public inquiry. It is time we worked together and stopped thinking someone else should do it for us, support will come from one another and sure we will take the support of the legion, but I do not expect them to do what we should be doing. Ken Dobbie and Art have already shown what can be done by victims of this mess, all I am saying lets join together and if we each do a little, then together we will have done a lot and thus we know it is done or is being done. Stand up and be counted .   Regards   Wayne Coady 434-9306 _______________________________________________________________   August 18, 2005   From:Sandy Skipton   What would be the aims? There are already well established Associations like 'The Royal Canadian Legion' 'The Wing association' ... They all support us, so what would you propose a new association would benefit??    Sandy   ___________________________________________________________________________ August 18, 2005   From: Wayne Coady   Dear Fellow Victims of Agent Orange and other related deadly chemicals at base Gagetown, we should consider putting in place a National Association, we have the numbers and now we must turn them into members, together we will be stronger.   So far we know that over 700 former members of the military are out there and we also know that the civilian population around Gagetown are also victims. Politicians only understand numbers, so lets give them numbers.   What say you all, is it a go?   Regards   Wayne Coady   902-434-9306 ____________________________________________________________________ August 18, 2005 From: Jody Carr Click on this link and on the page to the right you will see a BBC NEWS video/audio link about Canadian Base Gagetown and chemical spray, producer/research Jon Silvers and reporter Brian Barron.  BBC NEWS COVERAGE http://newssearch.bbc.co.uk/cgi-bin/search/results.pl?scope=newsifs&tab=news&q=agent+orange Thanks Jody !!  :) Art _______________________________________________________________________ August 17, 2005 Today, August 17th, is a difficult day. My baby brother was born 39 years ago today. He died at the age of 7years in September 1973. Tomorrow will be another difficult day. It will be my parents 53rd’ anniversary. My father died on May 24th of this year. Since my father’s death and the release of the media stories regarding the defoliant spraying at CFB Gagetown, I have been consumed. Consumed by emotions. Emotions that encourage me. Emotions that exhaust me. The past 3 months have been difficult for all involved. Today I am adding a page to this website that will allow us to share stories that make us smile. Stories about loved one we have lost. Stories of inspiration about people who have survived. Stories of love and encouragement. I will call the page "Memories". I would like people to submit a story about a loved one that makes them smile. A story that we will read and share.  Telling the stories let our loved ones live on. Happy Birthday Chris. Hapy Anniversary Mom and Dad. I love you both :) -Art ___________________________________________________________________ First Name: Marc Last Name: MacLean City: Province: E-mail Address: Comments: I submit this report as contradiction to the claim by DND scientists that Dioxin is quickly broken down by the sun's ultraviolet rays. This report is 30 years or so after the fact and it leaves no doubt that the environment, the people, and the wildlife contain above normal levels of Dioxin, and the levels are rising as they continue to come in contact with the polluted environment. Recent Dioxin Contamination From Agent Orange in Residents of a Southern Vietnam City Journal of Occupational Medicine 43:5, pp 435-443 May01 http://www.mindfully.org/Pesticide/Dioxin-Agent-Orange-S-V.htm Excerpt. Marked elevation of dioxin associated with the herbicide Agent Orange was recently found in 19 of 20 blood samples from persons living in Bien Hoa, a large city in southern Vietnam. This city is located near an air base that was used for Agent Orange spray missions between 1962 and 1970. A spill of Agent Orange occurred at this air base more than 30 years before blood samples were collected in 1999. Samples were collected, frozen, and sent to a World Health Organization  certified dioxin laboratory for congener-specific analysis as part of a Vietnam Red Cross project.. _________________________________________________________ August 17, 2005 First Name: Marc Last Name: MacLean City: Province: E-mail Address: Comments: Dear Jody, I am impressed with you sir. I surely appreciate your tenacious determination and dogged pursuit of the truth. You are clearly a good man who deserves a great big thank you from me and my family. I have complete faith in your commitment to this issue and those affected. Thank you Jody!! _________________________________________________________________ From: Comuinication between Jody Carr and Kenneth Dobbie August 17, 2005 What are u talking about? -------------------------- Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld -----Original Message----- From: Kenneth Dobbie <kdobbie2@cogeco.ca> To: Carr, Jody (LEG) <jody.carr@gnb.ca> CC: Art Connolly <artconnolly@rogers.com>; Ken Young <kentar@telus.net>; Meg Sears <MegSears@ncf.ca>; Wayne Coady <wcoady@accesswave.ca>; Sandy Skipton <info.needed@ns.sympatico.ca>; Louise Elliott <Louise_Elliott@cbc.ca> Sent: Wed Aug 17 19:07:16 2005 Subject: Public Inquiry Hi Jody.. I have not addressed this with you before, but it would seem to me that some element of power within your governing party. I am wondering if your government has any plans to announce a public inquiry? and if not, why not? Because there certainly needs to be one. Kenneth Dobbie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carr, Jody (LEG)" <jody.carr@gnb.ca> To: <kdobbie2@cogeco.ca> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 5:58 PM Subject: Re: Mr. Blaney Even though we are on opposite sides of politics I have great personal respect for Mr.Blaney. He is a good choice in my mind. I think you know the answer to your question. I will be making suggestions to improve the process that will give you more satisfaction with it and its progress. Jody -------------------------- Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld -----Original Message----- From: Kenneth Dobbie <kdobbie2@cogeco.ca> To: Carr, Jody (LEG) <jody.carr@gnb.ca> CC: Art Connolly <artconnolly@rogers.com>; Ken Young <kentar@telus.net>; Meg Sears <MegSears@ncf.ca>; Wayne Coady <wcoady@accesswave.ca>; Sandy Skipton <info.needed@ns.sympatico.ca>; Louise Elliott <Louise_Elliott@cbc.ca> Sent: Wed Aug 17 18:46:55 2005 Subject: Mr. Blaney Hi Jody I have been out of the loop for the past five days...some health problems. What I would like to know, was there an advertisement for the job, because I don't seem to get the impression that there was, or was Mr. Blaney just appointed? Having been an expert for over 15 years in human resource recruitment and selection in my past, it would seem to me that if Mr. Blaney was not the product of an intensive personnel search then we have a lot to be concerned about in terms of transparency by Mr. Blaney. One does not accept a position of such magnitude if appointed, without being biased in favour of those appointing. I, for one, am not happy with an appointment process, whether it be deemed a step in the right direction or not. Kenneth Dobbie ________________________________________________________________ From Wayne Coady August 17, 2005 Jody Thinks it is a good idea to have you two on the committee, lets see if he will push for you. Wayne Coady ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carr, Jody (LEG)" <jody.carr@gnb.ca> To: <wcoady@accesswave.ca> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 12:32 PM Subject: Re: Agent Orange Committee Good idea. -------------------------- Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld -----Original Message----- From: Wayne Coady <wcoady@accesswave.ca> To: Carr, Jody (LEG) <jody.carr@gnb.ca> CC: Art Connolly <artconnolly@rogers.com>; Ken Dobbie <kdobbie2@cogeco.ca> Sent: Wed Aug 17 12:34:17 2005 Subject: Agent Orange Committee Dear Jody Carr: If the "government" were sincere about getting to the bottom of the spraying of agent orange at Base Gagetown and if they were serious about wanting to assist those effected by Agent Orange, Purple and White, then maybe they should consider placing Ken Dobbie and Art Connolly on that committee. Other wise this committee looks no different than a committte looking into the trafficing of drugs or prostituation ,involving the Hells Angles, and their former members heading up that committee. It is all about ACCOUNTABILITY Jody Regards Wayne Coady __________________________________________________________________ From: Meg Sears August 17, 2005 Thanks for this, and for all of your hard work, Jody.  I'm really glad that you have confidence in the people looking into this.  It is a hugely important first step. I just want to stress that so far, I have grave concerns about the science.  You were told one thing, but the request for tender from DND does not indicate that they are looking at wildlife in the environmental sampling - only air, water, soil and vegetation.  Tissue has to be prepared differently, so would have to be requested specifically.  As well, they are only doing an abbreviated dioxin analysis.  Unfortunately, this is the standard, after years of the chemical industry pushing for it to be the standard, to miss the known contaminants of 2,4-D.  However, the CEPA lists more forms (congeners) as Track one substances, and a complete analysis is not difficult if you are already doing the subset.  DND is seeking analysis of twice as many samples of 2,4-D and 2,4,5-T (that you'd expect to be long gone) than dioxins.  This will show a lot of "no detects" on the tables - something that will look great! The devil is in the details with the science, and the best politicians in the world can be hoodwinked if there is not good review of the research plans.  This is really important because if you don't "look" properly you won't find the right answers - and absence of proof will be said to be proof of absence. In science, generally you have peer review of both research proposals, and of the results and reports before they are released.  There should be arms length review.  It is no good having "independent" workers if they are in fact technicians executing a work plan that is designed to ignore the most important points. I have done this sort of thing before, and regularly do it for medical researchers here, as I prepare medical journal articles (at least I'm not obliged to look at the research with such a cynical eye regularly).  I also recently was a peer-reviewer of an article at the request of the Canadian Medical Association Journal. If you have any questions about this - if I'm not clear enough, just ask! sure am glad that you're there:) Meg Sears (MEng, PhD) _______________________________________________________ From: Jody Carr August 17, 2005 Art, in response to your question regarding my thoughts on today’s press conference:  I have done some reflection on what I heard today and what I have finished reading so far on the comprehensive fact-finding process announced by MP Andy Scott.    After the public meeting on June 23 at Base Gagetown I called for an independent review of the entire spray program at Base Gagetown.  It was clear to me the federal government had the moral and ethical obligation to gather all information regarding the ENTIRE chemical spray program and provide the truth that would lead to the compensation by the Federal Government of all victims, civilians and veterans.  I have always tried to give people in government who want to help the benefit.  It is very hard to trust government, especially on this issue and how it has been handled for 50 years.  I do not criticize for the sake of it and I try to be reasonable.  This issue for me is not about politics or pointing blame.  But it is about the federal government fulfilling its moral and ethical responsibility.    It is not easy to get any government to take action, let alone the entire Federal government.  Tonight, I am still overwhelmed.  Honestly, today’s announcement was much more than what I expected.  I am cautious, but it looks promising.  I will keep helping to push this forward, help keep it honest and open and keep working to make sure all victims are helped.  It looks like a big step forward today.  It is independent, it goes back to 1952.  It includes a review of people affected (all civilians and veterans, including cadets and summer students), it includes a community health study with two parts, and it includes an actual review of the chemicals used and what impact they have on humans.  And in addition, the fact-finder appointed will oversee all of this work and will report back to government so they can make an informed decision on further action.  I will continue assessing this and delving further into the details and will make a formal structured response perhaps in the near future.  Some have suggested I have been a champion on this issue.  But the real champions are all those people who came forward, all the victims who have been hurt.  They are who motivate me.  The hundreds of people in my riding and people throughout NB and all across Canada, US and Scotland who have contacted me.  They have shared their stories, heartfelt stories.  I see my efforts over the last three months as being well worth it, for their sake and for the sake of the people who are no longer here.  Two individuals I especially think about today are Murray Magee and Stirling Warren.  Both called me and told me they were convinced their illnesses were a result of Chemical Exposure at Base Gagetown.  Stirling talked to me late last year and Murray a couple months ago.  Unfortunately, they both died this year.  Murray’s wife told me at his graveside for me to keep his name alive with the Agent Orange issue until all those hurt have been helped.  She said maybe he is not here to see it, but others might be.    I have confidence in the two individuals appointed to spear head this review.  Vaughn Blaney and Ron Murray.  Vaughn is the lead fact-finder and is a former NB Minister of Environment.  I ran against him in my first election 10 years ago when I was only 20.  He has always shown me great respect.  Even when others were making fun of a young fellow interested in making a difference, Vaughn knew better.  Some people would say, “What is that 20 year old thinking he is doing trying to get elected?”  But I kept moving forward in my quest to make a difference and came second with 28% of the vote, the best result in the 8 Fredericton Ridings of all the PC candidates.  I think a big reason I stayed in politics after that 1995 election was because of the way Vaughn showed me respect and encouragement, even though we were opponents.  Vaughn retired from politics and I went on to win the 1999 election at age 23 and subsequently the 2003 election by winning every single poll in my riding.  I can’t help but think of the full circle we have both traveled during this time as Vaughn stood and addressed the press conference today.    Ron Murray is a former Deputy Minister of the NB Government.  His family is also from the local area, in fact, he is from one of the communities that was expropriated when the Base was first built.  He is well respected and has the credentials.  He has great experience working with community groups and undertaking consultation exercises.  He believes in following a proper process that involves people.  I sincerely have every confidence that he will work hard to keep the process on track in order to find the truth.  These two men have a very huge task ahead of them.  I am confident they will work very hard to uncover the truth.  You know, that is really what people want.  They want acknowledgement and the truth.  Only then will the Federal Government be in a position to sincerely help all those who have been injured because of exposure to these chemicals.  To their credit, it looks like the Federal Government has listened.  Defence Minister Bill Graham has listened.  And to his credit, Andy Scott has also indeed been working hard on this file.  They have responded to the call for an independent review that is arms length from government.  They have responded to going back to 1952 to before the base was opened.  They will review who the people are that was affected and how they were affected, the chemicals, environment testing and a community health assessment.  A report will be presented that will be used by the government to make informed decisions about future actions.  I can’t help but think back to my first venture in politics at 20 years old when I responded to people after they asked me “why are YOU running?” and I said “to make a difference!”  Today I’d like to think in a small way I did help make a difference.  And because of today, I am hopeful we will be a huge step closer to finding the truth and helping the people who have been hurt.  Again, I will continue to push hard, I will continue to help keep the government honest and help keep the process open.   Rest assured, I WILL CONTINUE FIGHTING TO ENSURE ALL VICTIMS AND FAMILIES WHO HAVE BEEN HURT ARE HELPED.  Thank you.  Jody Carr, MLA www.jodycarr. ____________________________________ August 17, 2005 Gagetown Story on BBC World News Tonight!!!!! I have just received an email stating that there will be a story about the Gagetown Spraying on BBC World News amd BBC News at 10  You might see some familar faces!!!! Sorry for the short notice Art  ____________________________________________ FROM: Ghost Dog August 16, 2005 Hello Art, Just had to comment on this announcement by Mr. Scott today. It is another example of Liberal delay tactics so they can put this matter on the shelf until after the next election. I don't call Liberals hiring a former Liberal MLA Minister an open process in any way, shape or form.  I believe Mr. Blaney to be a good and honorable person, however, I question the lease they will no doubt put on him. They have ample science and medical evidence right now to ensure peoples stories are fact. Their own documents of spraying combined with the medical evidence makes this issue a no brainer. I have put a claim in to the VA as well as the history of my two children's health problems. I gave them their address & phone numbers but they haven't contacted them or me. This tells me the class-action suit is the path to take. I may not be here when it's over but it's something they won't be able to hide from. Once again thank you & Ken for all your efforts. You can look in the mirror in the morning and very feel proud of who you are. Tonight I'm not very proud to be a Canadian. Take care and bless you all. As always I remain Crying For A Vision  "GhostDog" "We Will Be Known By The Tracks We Left Behind."   "When We Walk Together, The Tracks Become As One." "This Makes The Great Sky Chief Smile Upon The Earth."   Thank you GhostDog...always a pleasure to hear from you  :) -Art _____________________________________________________________________   From: Sandy Skipton August 16, 2005 This is a different point of view to the article "Should soldiers who served in Gagetown be concerned about Agent Orange exposure" by Maj Jay Janzen, LFAA Public Affairs Officer. The article was in the August 8, Aurora newspaper. My name is Sandy Skipton, I attended the public information session that was held at CFB Gagetown on June 23 and was witness to a very angry group of civilian and former military members as they listened to the government representatives. I have been working for two years to find data that would prove my husband was in Gagetown. He was there with a sport team for a weekend during the time of the sprayings, and on May21/05 he died. Everything points towards Dioxin poisoning. I have been left to prove this with no help from the military, DVA or any other Government office. Consequently, I am one of the angry wives that is involved. There are many others just like myself. Sir, you have only covered what the government representatives said and have not reported what was said by the people that were looking forward to the government being honest and helpful. The government is saying that the spraying was only during 1966 and 1967, while there are military documents that show the spraying happened from 1956 til 1984. In 1964, the documents show, there was an incident due to weather inversion that caused the spray to move out of the intended spray area. Newspaper accounts of the time show civilian farmers got a $250,000 payout from the military one year after an accidental overspray destroyed their food crops. There seem to be many discrepancies in what the government is putting forth. These discrepancies have caused a Class Action Suit to be filed against the Minister of Defence and the Attorney General of Canada as representatives of the Canadian Government. Should soldiers who served in Gagetown be concerned about Agent Orange, Agent Purple, Agent White?? In my opinion YES!!!! We should all be concerned enough to educate ourselves so that each of us can better understand the implications of what truly happened. One place that someone could start their education is www.agentorangealert.com where they can read media reports, government media releases and the horror stories of the people that were in the area at the time. Don't believe everything you read or hear until you have been educated or walked a mile in the shoes of the affected people. All any of these people are asking is that the government be respectful and honest. I can not respond to your article since what I say is critical of DND and the Aurora Newspaper is bound by the 'Morale and Welfare Policy Manual - Vol 2' . I know your task is to put out information that you are fed but I thought as a Canadian Citizen you might take the time to learn more on the topic. You do have a way with words Sandy :) -Art _____________________________________________________________ To: Agent Orange Forum From: Marilynn (Doherty) Date: August 16, 2005 Art, I’m sorry to repeat the entire text but it's the only way I can reply and add my inputs to yours, Art, as there is so much info to address here.  Marilynn (Doherty) August 16, 2005 The Role of the Fact-Finding and Outreach Coordinator BG–05.022 - August 16, 2005 The Coordinator has two key responsibilities. First, he will be the principal conduit of information between those with concerns and the Government of Canada. The Coordinator will hear the concerns of the community, ensure those concerns are communicated to both government and those completing the fact-finding tasks, and will inform the community about the fact-finding work being conducted for the government. I agree with Ghost Dog.  I don't consider the Liberals' hiring a former Liberal MLA Minister to be an objective move, as honorable a person as he may be. As the primary focus of his work, he will communicate with people who have concerns, including current and former citizens who live and lived near the base, current and former CF members and current and former civilian employees of DND who may have been present during the spraying of herbicides at CFB Gagetown from 1952 to present. Included in this outreach are those people who have been identified as being present during the testing of Agent Orange, Agent Purple and other herbicides in 1966 and 1967. Like Art, I'd also like to know how we can contact Mr. Blaney.  I presume he'll make an email address available to all of us soon.  How will former civilian and military residents not now living in Oromocto/Base Gagetown know of this "outreach" program so that they too can make a claim, give their inputs and be counted? What do they mean about "being present during the testing..."?  Did we all have to have been standing directly under the spray planes to be considered exposed? The Coordinator will provide a report to the Minister of National Defence documenting his discussions with people, including some personal comments. integrate the results from a paper-based research study and his discussions with people in a report for the Minister of National Defence. This report will be an important consideration in subsequent decisions made by the Government of Canada. The Coordinator may also suggest additional research that could be useful to the government in dealing with this issue. I hope he'll suggest a lot of scientific and other research/reports that we posted and referred to here on the Forum as well. Secondly, the Coordinator will be the guardian of the fact-finding process. He will liaise with the Government of Canada through a committee of assistant deputy ministers from departments including the Department of National Defence, Veterans Affairs Canada, Health Canada and its agencies, the Pest Management Regulatory Agency and the Public Health Agency. Through ongoing liaison with government, the Coordinator will be able to assure that information is shared between the different aspects of the project to ensure consistency and thoroughness. He will provide relevant information obtained from government to the local population, and inform the government of any findings, information and questions that emerge through his outreach activities. He, an ex Liberal Minister, will "provide relevant information obtained from the government to the local population?"  Who decides what's relevant and what isn't?  I'd like to think that ALL information will be shared with us, not just what he or they consider relevant.  This concerns me.  The Coordinator will establish an office in the Oromocto area and will have a small staff to support his activities. I'd somehow like to see MLA Jody Carr a part of his team. Tasks The Coordinator will work with government officials responsible for coordinating three fact-finding tasks (for more detail of these tasks, see associated fact sheets). Fact-finding Task 1 will seek to identify, to the extent possible, through a paper review and initial contact, former and current serving Canadian Forces' members, and former and current civilian employees of the Department of National Defence (DND) who were present at CFB Gagetown during the spraying of the herbicides in question . This task will involve the determination of when they were present and in what capacity. The contractor completing the paper review will share the findings with the Coordinator on a weekly basis to facilitate the Coordinator's outreach activities. I'll be waiting for them to contact me and have the coffee ready.  I worked at the Base Hospital from 1964 - 1967 as well as lived in the civilian community of Oromocto from 1960 - 1967 so I was present during a lot of the years the spraying occurred.  As to what capacity was I exposed, it was at the hospital around soldiers coming in from the training area and from the toxins in the environment from the spraying around and in the town and on base.  Only information on current and former CF members and DND employees can be captured by this task, as they are the only groups for whom the Government of Canada has records. In addition, the Coordinator will attempt to capture as much information as possible about current and former citizens of the area through his outreach activities. Current and former citizens of the area can also call the government's toll-free number (1-866-558-2945) to identify themselves.   I'll do that as a former citizen of the area whose family still lives there.  Fact-finding Task 2 will be a review of the history and science of the spraying of herbicides at CFB Gagetown from 1952 to present day and an assessment of their environmental fate and impacts. This task will also incorporate assess the results of environmental testing undertaken by CFB Gagetown in summer 2005. Whoa, here we go again: "This task will also incorporate, assess the results of environmental testing undertaken by CFB Gagetown…" These results were determined by DND and will be biased. The people making up this Task are NOT qualified to make an assessment of this scientific/medical magnitude.   Fact-finding Task 3 is divided into two parts: Part 1 is a health study that will assess potential risks to human health from the herbicides used at CFB Gagetown, based on the properties of these products and the probability and degree of exposure (type, volumes, concentrations, application conditions, and frequency of use, etc.). As Art said: "We all know they will find probabilty conveniently low."  Reports of risks from exposure to these deadly toxins can vary and be biased depending on who the person doing the report is reporting to him/herself.  It's the old sociological question of "Says who?" Part 2 is a descriptive epidemiological study, which would determine whether there is a higher incidence of illnesses in the population in the area surrounding CFB Gagetown, versus a control population from elsewhere. This study will include illnesses that the scientific and medical communities have previously associated with exposure to the types of herbicides used at CFB Gagetown. I totally agree with Art's comments:  "Awww c'mon guys give us a little credit!!!  According to DND figures there were 150,000 troops pass through Gagetown during the years in question. Those people are not there anymore!!!! You need to be studying those troops and there families not the population that is there now." However, we certainly do have to study the "civilian" population living there now.  Those that lived there from the time the Base was built, during all the years of spraying and many who still reside there to this day.  My concern in such a study of the possible higher incidence of illnesses in these civilian communities is that those that have since left won’t be included. Without them being counted, the results will not be reflective of the real situation.. The Coordinator will co-chair, with DND's Assistant Deputy Minister (Infrastructure and Environment), three steering committees that oversee the fact-finding tasks. He will also share and explain final report results to the public as soon as they are received. A The Government will use a fair, open and competitive process will be used to select the non-government experts to undertake these three essential tasks . DND will be responsible for all contracting for Fact-finding Tasks 1 and 2, and Health Canada will be responsible for all contracting for Task 3. As long as "the government" selects the non-government experts, the process is not objective, fair and open. These tasks will help provide a clear and consistent set of facts that will allow the Government of Canada to make responsible, informed decisions about future actions. _______________________________________________________________ August 16, 2005 Government of Canada Approach to Fact-Finding on the Use of Herbicides at CFB Gagetown BG–05.021 - August 16, 2005 The Government of Canada is committed to identifying and reporting on facts surrounding the use of Agent Orange, Agent Purple and other herbicides during the specific test periods in June 1966 and June 1967. It is also committed to identifying and reporting on facts surrounding the use of all herbicides sprayed at Canadian Forces Base (CFB) Gagetown from 1952 to present day. This approach is based on historic and scientific research that will gather a clear and consistent set of facts and allow the Government of Canada to make responsible decisions on future action. Based on whose historic and scientific research? As part of this process, the government has developed an approach to identifying military and civilian personnel who were present at CFB Gagetown during the testing of Agent Orange, Agent Purple, and other herbicides during the specific periods in June 1966 and June 1967. In addition, the Government is committed to identifying military and civilian personnel who were present during the eight to 12 weeks per year when spraying of herbicides occurred each summer from 1952 to present. Thank you, Art:  "How about wives, children and civilians who were not personnel?" Fact-finding Approach The government understands and acknowledges that citizens in the area surrounding CFB Gagetown are concerned about the long-term and cumulative impact of the use of these herbicides on the environment and on their health. As a result, it will provide an opportunity and means for citizens, as well as current and former CF members and DND civilian employees, to identify themselves and their specific concerns to an external Fact-finding and Outreach Coordinator in the CFB Gagetown area (see The Role of the Fact-finding and Outreach Coordinator ). In addition, the Coordinator will work with government officials responsible for coordinating three fact-finding tasks, which will be conducted by contracted, non-governmental experts. The first task involves collecting information regarding people who were present at CFB Gagetown during the spraying of the herbicides. This task will involve the determination of when they were present and in what capacity. The contractor completing the paper review will share the findings with the Coordinator on a weekly basis to facilitate his outreach activities. The second task is a review of the history of the spraying of herbicides at CFB Gagetown from 1952 to present day and an assessment of their environmental fate and impacts. This task will also incorporate the results of the soil, water, air and vegetation testing conducted at CFB Gagetown in the summer of 2005. Art: "Do you mean the soil, water, air and vegetation testing that has been criticized? Testing of fish and wildlife need to be done. Why is the air being tested? You might test the air if there was spray or mist in the air. Of course there will be a good chance of there being a zero reading in the air."  My sentiments exactly Task 3 is divided into two parts: Part 1 is a health study that will assess potential risks to human health from the herbicides used at CFB Gagetown, based on the properties of these products and the probability and degree of exposure (type, volumes, concentrations, application conditions, and frequency of use, etc.). Part 2 is a descriptive epidemiological study, which would determine whether there is a higher incidence of illnesses in the population in the area surrounding CFB Gagetown, versus a control population from elsewhere. This study will include illnesses that the scientific and medical communities have previously associated with exposure to the types of herbicides used at CFB Gagetown. Art: Part 1 ..This is the one that scares me. You just know they are going to find the probability will be next to non-existent.  For sure. Part 2. A study which would determine whether there is a higher incidence of illnesses in the population in the area surrounding CFB Gagetwon, versus a control population from elsewhere. C'mon guys give us a little credit!!!  According to DND figures there were 150,000 troops pass through Gagetown during the years in question. Those people are not there anymore!!!! You need to be studying those troops and there families not the population that is there now. Work Underway in the Government of Canada The Department has initiated a soil, vegetation, air, and water sampling program in the range and training area at CFB Gagetown. The results of these tests will be made public. To date, with the records available, there is no indication that Agent Orange and Agent Purple were tested on bases elsewhere in Canada. That said, as a related and longer term due diligence project, National Defence will initiate research to determine whether Agent Orange, Agent Purple or other herbicides tested in 1966 and 1967 at CFB Gagetown were ever tested at other Canadian Forces military bases. This project will also involve a factual review of all other herbicides used at military bases across Canada. They may not have been "tested" on bases elsewhere in Canada but my sources tell me they were used on other bases. Disability Pension Program Veterans who were present during the testing of Agent Orange or Agent Purple at CFB Gagetown during the 1960s may be eligible for a disability pension from Veterans Affairs Canada (VAC). The department has been encouraging veterans who think they have a service-related illness to call for pension information. Since June, VAC has received over 700 calls related to this issue and has set up a special review team to handle the applications. Why bother calling?  Even if you "think" you have a service-related illness, according to DVA’s guidelines, you need concrete proof and medical evidence stating that your illness(es) was caused by direct exposure to these deadly toxins, all impossible to obtain. Art: "Yes the veterans "may" be eligible for a pension because they still have to prove it. No presumptive clause here. Bingo! "Veterans who think they have a service-related illness can call VAC at 1-866 522-2122 (English) or 1-866-522-2022 (French) for pension information.